Exposed Bone Under Ulcer?81 messages in this subject.
|I have had these in my left gum under the bottom last molar for about five weeks. Started as what I thought was a canker sore but eventually the center (about two weeks later) got hard and looked like exposed bone. My dentist said it was just a canker sore on a tori and to wait for it to heal over, but it hurt so much there was no way I was going to wait (and I didn't think he was right). I made an appointment with an oral surgeon, who was great. These are bone shards or splinters called "sequestra." They're just little pieces of dead bone that have chipped off due to some sort of trauma. I may have eaten something hard like a chip that damaged the bone a little bit and caused some of it to die (or lose blood flow). This causes the bone to break off and then your body tries to push the fragment out of your gums. (It can also happen if little pieces of bone or root tips are left after a tooth extraction). She said that eventually (about 2-3 weeks) the piece of bone will eventually just fall out, but she said she could also just take it out herself really quickly as the process of the body spitting it out can be really painful. |
So she made a little incision and removed it. Took all of 10 minutes, most of which was waiting for me to get numb from the novocaine. It was a flake about half the size of an oatmeal flake with a shark spikey surface. She said there might be more and to come back if there was. One week later, two more tiny pieces came to the surface. I went back a couple days later and she took them out, essentially with tweezers, without any painkiller. It was just a mild pinch. The pieces were about the size of a grain of sand. She said it felt like there was one more in there but it wasn't worth the trauma to cut my gums to dig it out as the body would do a much less damaging job bringing it to the surface. Today, a couple days later, this last (I hope!) piece has started to poke through, and I have an appointment to have it removed next week.
|emjaycue 23 June 17|
|some canker sores caused by denture rubbing will not heal if the denture continues rubbing the sore. no dentist told me this. i had a sore for seven weeks until i kept the denture out of my mouth when eating and most of the time.|
|Jay 9 June 17|
|I recently has a bump in the roof of my mouth by my top right molars. I scratched it eating tortilla chips. Then it turned into a huge ulcer and you could see bone. I finally broke down and went to my dentist. I asked if it was a tori. He took one look and said no. He took an X-ray and saw nothing unusual. He gave me s script for majic mouthwash, it began to heal. I notice after about five days the more it was healing the more the bone felt like it was sticking out. Like a tooth coming in. I could wiggle it with my tongue. I gently rubbed it with my finger nail. Holy cow it popped out. It was very deep and it didn't bleed much. Does anyone have a clue what this could be?|
|Stumped 8 June 17|
|Received severe gouge in tori caused by intubation from anesthesia. After 2 weeks of severe pain and unable to chew solids on the lower right went to dentist, thinking a tooth may have been damaged. Xrays revealed no damage to teeth. A week later the entire gun area developed a massive infection. Back to dentist, who detected exposed bone in in back area and was referred to oral surgeon. Was put on antibiotics followed by chlorhexidine rinse after infection subsided. 8 weeks post surgery pain is gone but can now feel small sharp bone sticking out from gum. Oral surgeon said this would eventually work it's way out. The anesthesia pre-op warned about possible tooth damage but no mention of damage to gum!|
|Kathy 11 May 17|
|Please don't get Tori removal unless it is absolutely necessary. It hurts. My jawbone is exposed now and will take up to two full months to heal. About a month for the pain to go away. Screw all that stuff.|
|JohnnyD 15 February 17|
|I just had a very odd and painful experience: after having routine X-rays and teeth cleaning, I experienced much more pain than usual on the gums of my two mandibular tori. After two days, the pain on my right lower jaw was so severe that I thought I must have an infection, so began salt water rinses and went back to the dentist after the weekend. They could see that the gums were inflamed, but they did not look infected, and advised continuing with the warm salt water rinses. The pain subsided, but I could still feel roughness on my gums. Then, two weeks following the cleaning, I felt a sharp object coming from my gums and rushed to the dentist so they could extract it. It was a piece of bone! She thought I must have eaten chicken, but I told her I have not been able to eat anything but soft foods for 2 weeks. As soon as I got home, a piece of bone came out from the tori on the other side. My gums are still rough and tender, and I think more pieces may emerge, but at least now I know what they are. The pain is gone, but the creepiness lingers :/|
Are tori really so delicate that they crumble when irritated by the X-ray guard? That seems to be what has happened. I will no longer have X-rays done, because my risk of cavities is not high and I do not want to ever experience that pain again.
|Maggie 12 February 17|
|I have tori way in the back behind my molar. I have had two surgeries already in front hurts so bad again|
|Terri 20 January 17|
|This message is for ANGELIA loving, Did you ever resolve your condition. Did you have it diagnosed, as I see an oral surgeon in 4 days and I am also worried it may be cancerous. Hope you are feeling better!!|
|Larry M 13 January 17|
|Glad I found this site!! I remember years ago when I was a teenager and got two back teeth removed When I left the dentist's office I felt a lump under my tongue I thought it was swelling from the extraction but here I am now at 60 years old and I'm just finding out the name of this condition!!!|
|bob 5 January 17|
|Thank you to everyone who took the time to post on this board. I am beyond grateful for your stories. I am "birthing" pieces of bone through my lower lingual tori. Oddly, I had never heard of tori before my most recent dentist visit when a new hygienist pointed them out. A couple weeks later, a spot on their gum tissue became sore and after a week or of extra flossing and poking (assuming I had a popcorn shuck jammed under the gum) I realized something was in the tissue itself. I described the pain as "feeling like I'm cutting a tooth through the side of my gum." The pain was intense right after I ate, but would subside about an hour later. My dentist took a look, prescribed a very strong antibiotic for what he assumed was an infection, referred me to an oral surgeon who could remove the tori, and told me to give him a call in a few days with an update. The antibiotics gave my stomach a good work-over but the pain in my gum didn't stop -- and the "tooth" I felt I was cutting broke through the surface. I went back to the dentist in person and he wanted to give me novocaine but I resisted because I was going straight from his office to a wedding and didn't want to drool through the ceremony. He complied but asked if he could "try something." He used a pick on the hard/pointy spot where the bone had come to the surface (ouch) and out popped a small piece of bone (INSTANT relief!). I wanted to hug everyone in the office. Since I found this forum, I have birthed four more pieces of bone - the biggest about the size of a flake of instant oatmeal with tiny sharp spurs. The pain is a pain, but much easier to take since the fear is gone. My dentist told me I could cancel my surgeon appointment and I'm optimistic that everything is okay long-term. I'm amazed a how few dentists/doctors know about this phenomenon.|
|Colette 13 November 16|
|I had a very large tori removed from the roof of my mouth 1 month ago, the skin that was stitched was very thin and opened up. I had horrendous pain where the exposed bone was when trying to eat or drink. It's finally healing and feeling better. My tori was so large that I had trouble swallowing liquids and choking so I'm glad I had the surgery. Thank you for this site I thought I was the only person in the world with tori because nobody else I knew ever heard of this.|
|Sharon 31 October 16|
|I am 60 yyrs old had all my teeth removed when I was 16 and. I have been experiencing jaw pain for a few months thought I had TMJ but now my ear hurts and I went to a dentist I have something on my bone like a wisdom tooth bot it has no roots. I'm afraid it's bone cancer. It shows white like a tooth and in the place where a wisdom tooth is suppose to be|
|Angelia loving 25 July 16|
|Hi just wondering , I have removed a tori on my outer upper jaw . But now a bit of the bone is exposed and Have some gum missing about Half a pinky nail size .|
Will this heal over ?
|Vincent 17 July 16|
|Thank you very much for your web site! You saved me emotional distress, time and money.|
|Anne Sizemore 16 July 16|
|Hi I got my wisdom tooth pulled a week ago ... Now I have a dry socket and my bone is exposed and it hurts so bad...|
I was wondering if I go to the e.r what will they do to help my situation...
I'm currently still taking the antibiotics and pain meds...
Also, I'm putting ground cloves in the area for comfort and to close off exposure of bone.
|Cherise 7 June 16|
|Wow, it seems like anything you're looking for you can find on the web now. |
I have a very large double torus on the roof of my mouth that started bothering me a month ago. All the usual irritants (tortilla chips, hard bread crust, etc.) have always bothered it but this sore spot was in a weird place, near the back where my soft palate starts. It was a real annoyance and distraction, pain wasn't that bad, seemed to wax and wane, and of course I was 'bothering' it with my tongue constantly trying to figure out what the heck was going on. Well, a couple of days ago I noticed less pain back there but what felt like a sharp area right under the skin. This morning before my coffee, I reached back there with my little finger and scraped, and yep, off came what I have now confirmed to be a little piece of bone! Freaky!! It was about the size of maybe a quarter piece of raw rice, or smaller, but boy did it bug me. Guess my body just created it then got rid of it. There is still a sharp ridge back there, so maybe the torus is having another 'growth spurt' or something, but the pain is finally gone. Wish I didn't have this stupid thing, I have never been able to roll my tongue for those Spanish consonants, but after reading horror stories about getting them removed I think I can deal!
Thanks for all your stories, fellow torus-sufferers. Nice to know that I'm not such a freak of nature as I once thought.
|Annie 23 May 16|
|Thanks for this post! Was in really bad pain for a month. Had a couple of fillings and I had an ulcer under the tooth either from the drill or the new dental nurse in training. The roughest assistant ever banging the extractor against me gums. Had to go to the emergency ward with a bacterial infection. Got put on antibiotics. Went back to the dentist sand their prescribed a post surgery mouth wash. It got better after 2 weeks. But bone was even more exposed. I would feel it was bone with my fingernail and tongue. I had been freaked out by it for a month and came across this post. I tapped it with the back of the spoon and then broke the bone off with my thumb fingernail. Bled a little. Hopefully I got it all. Thanks for all that contributed to the post. Saved me a trip to the dentist and possible surgery costs! We should be compensated, but how do you prove it was them in court!|
|Scott 15 May 16|
|Thank goodness I found this site! I had 21 teeth removed and received a full top plate and a partial lower. The dentist was a little bit concerned with the fact that I have sub-mandibular tori (boney growths on the lower inside of the jaw behind my insidors caused most likely from grinding my teeth). The other dentist in the office said that the lower partial should be no problem. Well low and behold I started developing HUGE horridly painful ulcers, within 3weeks I was eating Advil like candy. The dentist I went to was 3 hrs from home, when I called the nurse said that I should contact an oral surgeon and have them removed. Then I read here that it was probable that they would just break off. So I kept rinsing with warm salt water every fee hours using oragel and Advil and aspirin (alternating) for pain and today it's happened. It's like MAGIC! No more pain! Thank you so much for the education! |
I wish the dentist could have told me that!!!
|Michelle B 11 May 16|
|I had something that felt like bone sticking through my gum on my left-lower jaw area. After going to the dentist, they suggested that I should re-do an old crown. They did NOT find this protuding bone in my gum. It has been causing me great discomfort, rubbing on my tongue and possibly hitting a nerve that affected my whole left side of the mouth. Well, found this site and worked up the nerve to get in there with a pick and cracked off the little bone fragment sticking through. Almost immediate relief. There is nothing protruding from the gum and my tongue has nothing to obsessively play around on. Glad I didn't do the $1,100 crown replacement.|
|Mike 20 April 16|
I had tori surgery to remove inner bone. It has been a nightmare. Multiple issues with sutures not holding on one side. Ended up being referred to periodontist. 4 months now. Having change of taste sensations and excessive saliva.
I don't know what to do next. Suggestions are appreciated.
|Hector 3 April 16|
|I'm so happy that I've found this site. I had surgery with intubation two weeks ago. Since then my torus has become more and more painful. It has two white bumps that don't heal. My surgeon and anesthesiologist say this couldn't be due to the intubation and it has been quite scary. Neither of them seem to know anything about tori. I think I'll talk to an oral surgeon or maybe just wait for the bone spurs to pop out.|
|Kathy 3 April 16|
|I also have had the condition where several pieces of bone or calcium have worked out of my lower inside gum area. It had been going on for 8 weeks. I think I am finally in the healing process. It has been extremely painful and discomfort. I had learned not to touch it with my tongue and thought I was going to have to live with it. And finally a couple more pieces came out that I thought my mouth was healing and not covering the bone. So I have an appointment with an oral surgeon. I don't think I will have to keep it now. But I wanted to share that I went to my go. Not about my mouth. But he was feeling my neck and jaws and I told him I had swollen glands and described what had been going on. He thought I had passed some saliva stones. Which I think could be the answer. Except for the void in my mouth where the bones had been. But I am now not in pain and feel like my mouth may be healing. But it was a long 8 weeks!!|
|Nancy 23 March 16|
|Chose to have the tori removed.Worst decision of my life.PLease i don't wish to scare people but what this has put me through is horrific and 7 days post op after i eat a yogurt the pain is so severe it sends me into a panic attack. I worry i may not find my way out of this. PLease let it resolve on it's own if you can and as long as it doesn't get infected you will be better off. I'll never trust dentistry again.|
|lazerhead 18 February 16|
|Hi there, I've had three very small bone pieces come through now, and I've got another piece in my gum at the moment. Mine are small pieces, but very bothersome, although with the first two I didn't notice them until they were just about out. This also has been only over the last three months. I've been referred to an maxillio facial surgeon by a dentist as he has no idea what it is. I don't have a filling, and I've never had a tooth extracted. Has anyone been given an actual answer, is it that the tori has grown so big it's too close the gum and breaks off? Thanks so much.|
|Amelia 5 February 16|
|Thankful i found this page.I had a series of tiny bones at the base of my right tori (all started with a gum scrape by my dentist's assistant).I finally put my finger under there and i could feel something like the edge of a serrated knife so i pulled on them and brittle as they are they started coming apart.I may have swollened them or spit them out in the sink but the sharp edgyness is gone.It was sore right away but has subsided and it feels better already.I have a dental appt so i'll get my dentist to see if there is any he can find.Gb|
|Lazerhead 12 January 16|
|Yay, I had my second tori in the past two months, the first time, I went to the dentist and he sent me to an oral surgeon. He elected to pull an upper tooth that didn't have an opposing lower and was coming down. He also " ground off" the bit of jawbone sticking out and after it all healed, everything was fine. Last week I got another one inside, close to the last one. I decided to check online and found this site, thankfully. After a week of ibuprophen and Ora-gel, I used my fingernail to pry on the tori, and it popped off, no more pain!! Wonder of they will keep happening?|
|Melia 8 January 16|
|Now that I am 65 years old, I have recently had areas of my dental tori erupt, stick out from under the gum, become very sore and so sore I could not eat on that side until further healing. I am glad to say that now I have had three tori pieces to come on through. I say glad because until they erupt 100 % and are out of the gum, they do not seem to heal right. They do not bleed appreciably. My dentist was going to crown a tooth, but held off since this was occurring. Now I can get that crown done. You will be somewhat uncomfortable with this, but with the assistance of something warm to drink, a good mouth wash, Ibuprofen (2) each 4 hours, you can feel better. I sure hope that this helps someone. You are not a lone in this.|
|Ronald Johnson, Prattville, AL (email@example.com) 23 December 15|
|Thanks for this site. I had an ulcer on the roof of my mouth to the right of molar. I have no wisdom teeth. I scratched the surface as it wasn't healing and I thought this would get it started. I felt this hard sharp thing beneath. I was scared. Found this site and it gave me the courage to pick out the hard piece with my nail. I barely touched it and it popped out. It was a little bigger than a pin head. There was no pain. It is now healing fine. Thanks!|
|Lisa 20 November 15|
|i have dentures..both top and bottom..i lost all the gums on the bottom and nothing but bone was exposed and it was splintering off and talk about painful..i saw 3 dentists and an oral surgeon...the oral surgeon wanted to do implants...$6000..i am disabled and live on $700 a month..impossible..and ins doesnt cover them enough...then i saw another dentist..he said i dont have enough bone in the bottom to even put in implants...eventually the gums grew back over and everything is good..i was fitted for new dentures...Now i have new bone coming out of my lower leg side on the bottom again..i was told i have rheumatoid arthritis in my jaw...that was causing so much pain|
|Danna Corbitt 19 October 15|
|Thank you everyone for sharing your stories. I was eating food about two weeks ago and after I was done I felt like my gums tore behind my left molar down on the side and not completely on the top. I felt it and it was cracked and bleeding and sort of painful at the time. A couple days later it was so painful and I had to take some ibuprofen to manage the pain and like some of you the under side of my jaw and neck was swollen. I didn't know what was going on, since I've never felt like this in my whole life. I'm a 41 year old male and I had my wisdom teeth pulled when I was a teenager, so this was making me wonder what was going on. I couldn't eat on that side of my mouth as it was painful to put pressure on it, and was thinking about going to the dentist. I could put my fingernail on it and I could feel it like something hard coming through the gum on the bone where my tongue rests on back side down under where the wisdom tooth would have been. Now, it looks like a white, smooth boney dome about the size of my pinky nail coming out of my gums and when I put pressure around the edges it bleeds a little. It doesn't hurt anymore to eat on that side like it did at first, but I still predominantly chew when I eat the right side. So, was trying to search and find out if anyone else had this same problem, or what it was before I made the decision to see a dentist, or doctor. Glad that I found this page! I guess I'll just wait it out to see if/when it comes loose so I can eventually pull it out. From what I've read, it will probably be a few more weeks. Hope this is the first and last time this happens, since some of you I can read has had more than one rodeo with these things. Wondering if it's because I switched toothpastes about a few months ago from Crest to Arm and Hammer Advance White? I've always eaten ice since I was a kid, so don't know if that has had something to do with it over the years? I just don't know how these things start. Hope this helps the next person in line.|
|Rich 10 October 15|
|WHEW!! Glad I found this site! I have what looks like exposed bone on the inside of my lower jaw tori. This is the second occurrence. The first one was, I thought, something that got stuck in my gum from eating a hamburger. A small piece of bone that went through the meat grinder. It came out. Now I guess it was bone from ME!! I have another one now that's rubbing my tongue, causing some discomfort. After reading the posts on this site, I'm going to the bathroom mirror and pull this thing out! Thanks everybody! God bless you all!!|
|Chris. 9 October 15|
|Ya, Simon And Garfunkle's songs still relate, even years later. They were just great swreonitgrs.And I miss those days, too! We gotta get together and jam or go do some musical deal somewhere. Actually, I was just thinking the other day remember when I just showed up, set up, and played, and let Eric worry about everything else? hehe If I ever had a week off, it would be so cool to go over and play a little lead at Chorus.|
|Sumadi 26 September 15|
|I'd be interested in seneig a photo of what you tried and thought was successful. I AM Asian, but am fortunate to have a large area between brow and lash, and my eyelid fold is pretty high. But I do not think faking a crease looks good on me.I do think what helps is getting the occasional makeover. One that I remember had me telling the MUA I was tired of looking tired. After she did my eyes with eyeliner that was thicker at the highest part of my lash line and winged up and out, and winged shadow that corresponded, plus did a good job of concealing my undereye shadows, I did look more awake! It was tasteful, too - how could Laura Mercier NOT be? In thinking about your concern, I recall that my husband's niece has no crease, but has a fresh look. She does cover a large part of her lid with a dark liner, then blends a neutral shadow up and out from that. Like me, she does NOT line the lower lid, so the eye does not look "closed in".Hope this gives you some ideas. Let us know how it goes.|
|Ayaa 26 September 15|
|OK, just to follow up. I left the exposed Torus alone for about a week, but it didn't heal over. Started myself on a maintenance dosage of Advil to help manage the swelling and prescription mouth wash. Mainly, to reduce damage to the surrounding teeth and gums from prolonged inflammation. After about a week the exfoliation process started. I could feel "sandy" bits around the bone, until a modest bit fell out into my coffee. The same day I applied light pressure to the bone and felt it crack and give. Once this happened the situation was entirely different. The torus became very loose and I could feel the jagged edges of bone on my gums. I'm sorry to report that once the torus breaks off the jaw bone there will be pain. But, it will be obviously loose and the correct time at which to carefully remove it. Fiddled with it a bit, pressing and cracking until I was pretty sure it was no longer attached to my jawbone. Rocked it forward dislodging it from the top. Then, used tweezers just to grip it and carefully lift it up and out of gums. The torus came out with a fair amount of underlying jaw bone. I'd estimate the size as about an 1 long, 1/2 inch wide, and about 1/4 thick. The hole filled in quickly with the swollen gums that had surrounded it. None of the process required any heavy force. The swelling went down and I'm happy to done with this unpleasant chapter that started 2 months ago. |
The bone once exposed will die and your body will eat at the underside of it until it falls out. I'm glad I found this website and avoided a painful elective surgery.
|Some guy part2 14 September 15|
|So, my gum swelled up out of the blue and I could feel something hard under the swelling. I excavated the site expecting to remove a small bone fragment. 3 weeks later I'm still trying to pry this "invader" out of my mouth and eventually end up at the dentist because my teeth are feeling loose. Turns out the bone had been there all along and I did not become of aware of its presence until something injured the gum above it giving me the very incorrect impression a bone was attempting to work its way out. My teeth were getting loose because the "bone" was a mandible toris and fused to my jaw. Bone growths can come in from under the tongue, but also from the side. Secondly, using my finger I some how go the impression the bone was "moblie. Turn's out your finger is a poor judge of how loose something is or isn't. So, if you've been clawing and prying at this thing, just stop. Feels better in like 48hrs. Might even heal up on its own. I feel like an idiot, but thought I might be able to help some one else out.|
|Some Guy 3 September 15|
|A few weeks ago, I had gone in to my dentist for a check up and cleaning. I was suffering a sore # 31 molar and I knew that it had cracks in it and needed a root canal and crown. I've had many teeth pulled in the past, and no tooth above this one, so I wanted it pulled, since it wasn't used anyway. I was sent to a maxofacial surgeon. He explained to me that he would not pull it due to Zometa treatments that I had for 2 years for cancer treatment of Multiple Myeloma. He suggested a root canal. I didn't want to go through that and expense for a tooth I don't use. So I went back to my dentist and he sent me to another surgeon. It took another week to get my records from my oncologist and appointment set up. The day before the extraction, I noticed the cancor sore felt hard. I was alarmed to feel actual bone in that spot. I showed it to the surgeon and he didn't say anything and pulled it. A few days later, it is still there. I've been doing salt water rinses and have an appointment to see the surgeon in 3 weeks. My oncologist is worried and checking with another doctor. She is worried it could be osterocrosis. They are just watching it now. Not in pain, it is just sharp against my tongue.|
|Tammy W. 17 August 15|
|Haha. Same exact thing. Gallbladder surgery. Three weeks later pain under the tongue, top of tori. Bone exposed a couple of days ago. Whole jaw aching. Found this page this morning, reached back there and pulled out a bone spur. Instant relief. Bodies are weird.|
|tim 1 August 15|
|well i took a toothpick and pryed it out. Looks like a sharp piece of bone to me. :/ hurt like HELL. lol Now i have a hole in my gum!|
|Brandy 31 July 15|
|I had this irritating bump appear on my upper back jawl, i recently had a partial made for that area and it hurt so bad when fitting the partial. Then about 2 weeks later this bump appeared and it just got worse and more painful, so i scraped away the skin and it was hard like a bone or tooth. I went to the dentists and he said it was a pertruding ulcer. It's been now over a month and its still there. What should i do, how do i get rid of this.?.?.|
|brandy 31 July 15|
|So glad I found this! Was about to start panicking. I, too, was intubated for surgery, two weeks ago. I have the most massive tori anyone's ever seen, top and bottom, inside and out. After the surgery my mouth was full of sores. One on the bottom right didn't heal but has gotren worse. I thought maybe my torus was growing too fast for my gums to keep up! Tonight after dinner suddenly the pain increased greatly and I looked to see my gums are swollen. Now I found this site! So I felt with my finger and there is definitely exposed bone. I was about to call in a dental emergency and probably waste my money like some of you unfortunately have. Now instead I think I will do a rinse, take some Tylenol and wait it out. Thank you all so much! I too thought I was alone, and was kind of creping myself out.|
|Grateful to Find This Conversation! 25 July 15|
|This is very interesting. I too had gallbladder surgery and the day after surgery I noticed an ulcer on the inside of my mouth (inside of jaw just under my back two molars by my tongue) I assume it is from the oxygen tube as I have an overgrowth of Tori already, which the Dentist says is nothing to worry about. Well, the sore did not go away and so 4 weeks later it seemed to grow bigger and it had a hard center which felt like bone. I was freaking a bit. I went to a Dr and he gave me antibiotics for infection and some steroid cream. Nothing seemed to work. Then I decided to google the issue and up popped this forum. I decided to see if this was a spur and if I could pull it out. I have to admit it creeped me out a bit, but low and behold...this hard piece pulled out and it was quite big and immediately the gum tissue covered over the hole and its a bit sensitive and did bleed a lot but it feel so much better.|
|Kenny 18 July 15|
|I thought I had an ulcer on the inside of my gum, but I put alcohol on my steel pick and when I touched it, it was real hard. So I lifted it from behind with the pick and it was loose and sticking out. When I closed my mouth it came out on its own. It was tori. I was at the dentist a week earlier and had my teeth cleaned. When the lady took X-rays, the hard plastic must have scrapped my gum, enough to irritate it, and lo and behold a piece of tori came loose and wiggled its way out. |
It was the size of the tip of my little fingernail and hard as a rock!
|Donna June 20, 2015 20 June 15|
|First off all thank you all for posting, it helps to know what others have experienced. I'll try to keep my story short. I was undergoing my 3rd round of chemotherapy (I had colon cancer, lymphoma and a bone break in my l2 lumbar because of degeneration.) and received numerous blisters mostly on the inside of my jaw. After one of them finally went down I felt something moving in the sore in the middle and plucked out a tiny sliver of bone. It healed up. Then recently in the exact spot a new spur formed and is now poking through. I have decided to just, keep up with all dentil hygiene, but doubling it and wait for it to fall off. I have no pain hardly at all. And by the way, am Cancer free!|
|Eric 15 June 15|
|Wow....4 days ago thought i had a canker sore on my gum..went to put origel and felt sharp bone looked in mirroe and was shocked to see bone sticking out along with tori in both sides of lower jaw found it on friday night.went to dentist on monday he said i needed to see oral surgean. They scheduled me four days later and said consultation. I also have high pain threshold and this was cutting my tongue everytime i swalled..just found this website...reached back with my fingernail and broke off 2 pieces of bone...instant relief...bleeding but already feels better|
|kevin 20 May 15|
|OMG. I am so glad I found this site. I too have had many tori bumps in my mouth but recently had to have my wisdom teeth removed (at age 45). I had a tori with a bone exposed that was rubbing against my tongue and very painful. After reading a few of these posts, I reached to the back of my mouth and with my fingernail plucked at the exposed bone and out it came! Immediate relief. Thanks everyone!|
|Patrick F. 10 May 15|
|I've had a small boney bump (torus) for many years on my right jaw under the tongue, with no complications. Recently it seemed to be growing and getting tender. After some routine dental work I noticed the skin on the torus was torn and peeling; it eventually ulcerated and exposed the bone underneath, like a small smooth dome. The pain was terrible. After reading this blog I treated it with acetaminophen and salt-water rinses, which did help the pain for awhile, but the gum would not heal back over the bone; it remained an open sore. My teeth and jaw on that side (both upper and lower) became very tender and sensitive; I could no longer chew on that side of my mouth. When I felt a painful lump on my throat under my chin on the right side, I feared it was becoming infected. I pressed firmly on the gum (very painful) and exposed bone to massage that area, and felt the bone "give" under the pressure. A small domed piece of bone broke away, and the area bled for a bit. The only pain was the pressure from my fingers on the swollen gum tissue. After a day and some salt water rinses, I'm feeling much better. The gum is now healing over the spot where the bone had been exposed, and I no longer need pain meds. The dentist looked at it this morning and said it looks fine, no antibiotics needed. I'm grateful for this blog!|
|Kristie 7 May 15|
|Wow I've been referred to the hospital for this as my dentist was baffled! I've picked at it with my finger and....yaya it came off and instant relief! Thank goodness for the Internet!|
|Donnela 3 April 15|
|Hi All, I think I'm having the same issue. I just got my braces off and have retainers for the top and bottom of my teeth. The top gum started getting sore toward the back molar and now I have a ulcer there. I felt the ulcer with my finger and part of it feels sharp like a bone but it doesn't hurt. I'm wondering if it is bone or just tough tissue. Eitherway it doesn't hurt at the moment and I just started gargling with a mix of water and peroxide to hopefully heal the ulser. I'm hoping it isn't bone coming out because I don't have insurance any more nor money to pay to see a dentist. If it is one of these Tori's I hope it falls out on it's own soon.|
|AJ 31 December 14|
|Ok so I have a bone sticking out and I can move my gum and I'm 11 so will it pass IDK but I have braces and the crown thing they cement to my tooth is next to it so it might be that if it falls out how Long will it take|
|Eva 26 July 14|
|Wow-- it is nice to find people with this same issue. I thought I was alone. I thought my jaw was deteriorating. I thought a lot of things! And the pain was excruciating. My doctor AND my dentist were both stunned when I said I have bone sticking out of my gum. But I pointed it out and sure enough, they believed me then. But- still stumped. I got the first one on my right side and then right across another opened and both had exposed bone. This left still does. No one believed how bad it hurt. I said I have a very high pain tolerance and it hurts more than anything I can remember. So sent to two oral surgeons finally to be told they are tori and since they opened up, this bone will have to die and fall out. Gave a mouth rinse to use twice a day. Also I read to put a dab of sendodyne on it and it actually does help a bit. Then one night finally the left side felt wiggly. With a little prodding I could feel it cracking off and out it tumbled. Pain gone. Just like that. Skin healed right over. Now all I feel is an indent covered by skin. So, hoping the other side follows suit and does the same because until it gets good and ready and finally cracks off it hurts like a mother bear!!|
|Jayne 19 July 14|
|glad I found this site. Im having same problem with hard bone sticking through my gums. Thought I was losing it. Went to the dentist and they did exrays and said everything was fine. I now have an appointment with an oral surgeon but I think I will cancel that and wait for the bone to work its way out. Its scary to think about pulling the bones out of my gums, I hope it works its way out by itself. Yikes!|
|tm 15 July 14|
|I had gall bladder surgery recently. They intubated me. When I woke up from the procedure, I had a very sore throat for 3 weeks, hoarse voice, green coming out of my sinuses and a sore in my mouth on my lower right jaw. I went to see the dentist 2 days after surgery about the sore but she didn't even look at it. I was told to rinse with salt water and sent on my way. A week later, I had a swelling on my neck under my jaw where the pain and sore was on the inside. I went to the doctor who told me it was normal after an intubation. The pain meds for my gall bladder ended so I was in a lot of pain. A friend suggested baking soda rinses and that worked a lot better than the salt for me. I went back to the dentist 12 days after my first dental visit. This time she looked at the sore and took pictures. I too have tori and the dentist felt that they nicked at least 3 parts of my tori on my lower jaw during surgery intubation. I was told nature would have to heal it and was sent on my way. I felt that I had infection since I still had the swelling on the outside of my jaw but since the dentist did not detect infection when she poked inside the jaw, I was not given any antibiotics. I started taking 2 mL Pau D'Arco twice a day. After several days of that, the swelling improved. 35 days after the gall bladder surgery, I pulled a sharp bone that had worked it's way out of my jaw. I had come across this website prior so I was not afraid. It was like pulling a baby tooth out. Wow, the pain is almost gone now and I went from 2 extra strength tylenol, 3 times a day to 1 once a day. What a difference now the bone is out. I think they scraped my tori causing the open sores and broke off some of my tori when they intubated me. The surgeon's reaction - "I don't know what tori is". I felt my medical and dental care was very poor but this website gave me the hope and courage I needed during a very difficult time. Over a month of a swelling throbbing jaw on top of recovery, certainly made life miserable for a while. Thanks to everyone for posting. Stay strong, pray to the Lord, and let nature take it's course. I could not chew on that side for a month and thought I was going to lose all my bottom teeth on the right side. What a relief!|
|Maureen July 5 2014 5 July 14|
|Soon to be 50 yo female. I'm so excited to have found all of your posts this morning! Thanks for sharing. I developed a painful ulcer on the tori that is located on the roof of my mouth a couple of years ago. Was seen by my dentist (he had no idea what it was) and an oral surgeon (he wanted to 'knock' off the tori). Because the skin is so thin on the roof of the mouth and I could imagine the healing process would be long and painful, I opted to forego surgery and 'wait and see' which I'm glad I did. Just like most of you, a bone worked it's way out...and taa'daa! It felt so much better, healed up and all was right in the world again. Problem now is that its happening again. What's a tad irritating is that I've yet to speak with a professional who has heard of this and when I tell them that I've flicked off a piece of bone from the inside of my mouth, they look at me like I'm nuts?!? (K, I'm a little nuts, but not a liar) thank you all so much for sharing your stories.|
|audrey 11 June 14|
|I wanted to thank everyone for posting their experiences as it gave me hope. Last month I had a temporary cap placed and my tori was somehow scratched and a jagged and painful piece of bone poked through my gums. It was more painful than surgeries I've recovered from. It was even growing in length over the last few weeks and I thought it was perhaps not going to get better on its own. I have been living on ibuprophen and salt water rinses (the salt water did help). Anyway, I was poking around back there with my finger nail, I was noticing that the jagged bone was even deeper in depth than it had been, and next thing I knew, the bloody chunk of bone broke off just as other people posting here had mentioned. It felt better immediately (again, just as others claimed it could). When I feel in the back of my mouth with my tongue, it seems like the gum somehow is covering the indentation area where this bone came out of. All I feel right now is a dull ache and I am so thankful that the sharp and painful chuck of jagged bone is out of there. Thank you to everyone that posted their experiences. I know that we have to take things we read on the internet with caution, but as I mentioned in my opening, reading the posts gave me hope that my problem could go away (even though I was doubtful at times). Thank you to those that shared (and I'm so happy that I feel better).|
|Kris 12 May 14|
|I just got home from having my #31 extracted. I had started have a dull toothache about 2 weeks ago. Finally enough was enough. I went to an EmediDent were the said I had a fractured tooth and did a root canal and a crown. About a day and a half later a bone spur came Loose right under where they did the root canal. Now I had had spurs on the past but none that hurt this bad! I think the spur was the problem all the time and not a bad tooth! The emergency dental office took advantage if me! Needless to say I went to an Endodontic Specialist where they did a "Cone Beam X Ray" that does a 3D X-ray. This showed that my tooth was fractured because of the root canal and had to be pulled! Long 3 days and very painful too! I have Mandibular Tori's on both sides of my lower gums and will always give me problems! These spurs are caused by tooth extractions. #17, #30 and now #31. I'm in deep crap! More spurs and excruciating pain to come for years and years I'm afraid!|
|Ron 19 February 14|
|Blissfully unique: I had a similar somewhat similar situation. First my left mandibular tori got sore & the oral surgeon removed a tiny sliver of bone. I was good for about 5-6 weeks, then the right tori got sore and ulcerated on the underside. All this started this past June & I've been through 6 rounds of antibiotics since then, and 2 root canals. The oral surgeon decided we should remove the tori altogether & I had the surgery today. He said he removed lots of dead & dying bone & he's very confident the tori were the problem and that we've resolved the problem. Hope this is of some help to you?|
|JanC1955 11 December 13|
|Hi guys, I don't know of this would help any of you at all, but I did get a semi-helpful explanation from an oral surgeon I recently saw. I have the same thing happening to me for the 2nd time in just a few months. Here's a quick rundown of my case: one night I scratched the back of my right side of my mandibular tori with a pill that I had to chew & within a day or two I had unbearable mouth pain on my entire right side of my mouth, jaw & face. It was so bad that I went to the emergency room where they recommended a dentist & gave me an rx for pain meds & an antibiotic. At this point there was only a minor scratch & no one thought anything of it. They didn't think that little scratch could possibly be the culprit. So, couple of days later the scratch had kind of healed, but a pretty sizeable bump had developed in the same area. A couple of days later it poked through the skin & then eventually pieces of bone started coming out. So here's the oral surgeon's explanation: the gum tissue over tori is super thin & can easily be cut straight down to the bone & once that bone is exposed to air, it immediately starts to die. As the bone dies, the ulceration can become irritated & open a bit more. Over time the bone in that area will totally die & break off. The gum tissue will heal & push the bone pieces up & out of the skin. |
Now, my only problem with what he said is that he had also told me that this circumstance is fairly rare & should only happen once, maybe twice in a lifetime & this is now the second time in only a few months for me. I also think there is another area that this is starting to happen to , meanwhile I just pulled another piece of bone out of my mouth a few minutes ago. I am so tired of being in pain...
Do any of you know if there is a way to treat this so that you don't have it reoccurring over & over again??
|blissfullyunique 10 December 13|
|Goodness, the story seems so familiar. |
48 yr old male ---- suddenly gets really sore gums ----- eventually, see some bone poking through ------ three weeks later ---- dug a piece of bone out and life feels honkey dorey, again. I had actually scheduled some oral surgery ($1500) to address the problem (Dr. said it's a tori, and needs surgical removal). Now that everything feels fine - I think I'll save my money.
|richard 5 November 13|
|I had a back tooth out and 4 weeks down I had a sore spot hurts like hell to touch and now bone is comeing threw sore has hell what do I do now???? will it quit hurting soon ?????|
|jill webb 7 October 13|
|Hallalujah! I have had a canker sore near my bottom back left molar for about 2 weeks, and it has been PAINFUL! Plus it was weirding me out because it felt like it had gone down to my jawbone. So that when I felt back there, it felt as if I was touching exposed bone. Really kind of scary. Well, I ended up once again doing a search online to see if there was any information I could find. In past I wasn't able to find anything really. I stumbled upon a website that talked about mouth ulcers exposing bone. Reading through it there was talk about how the sore was actually bone protruding and breaking off. Sounded kind of nasty. Read some denistry about this problem. So there I am feeling scared and that miserable pain in my mouth. I kept thinking that when I touched the exposed bone, it had kind of an edge on one side, so maybe it was kind of bone shard. I picked at it and boy it hurt. Then suddenly it gave and I pulled out my fingers which were covered with blood. I went back in and found that the bone shard had flipped up. I got a hold of it and pulled it out. It felt like heaven! The piece I pulled out looked like part of a tooth. It feels incredible now, the pain is almost completely gone. This is the third time something like this has happened. I keep thinking that possibly when I had my wisdom teeth removed years before that there were bone fragments left behind, which over the years migrated, came to the surface to get released. Who knows. Thank you guys for the info. I feel so much better!|
|Dean C 26 September 13|
|So. This is the second time I've had bone spurs poking through. The was so intense this time I went to emergency. They hooked me up with an oral surgeon and it turns out that its one of two things. 1st would be a spur that can be scaled down and the hole sewn up. The other is "Ostionecrosis". You don't want this as it is bone death and I may have to have surgery and reconstruction to remove the dead bone and replace it. I'll find out more on my next appointment in 2 weeks|
|Paul 5 October 12|
I've have several bone spurs in between my bottom teeth. At first they weren't painful. Once they were exposed, they became dry and brittle and I would break them off. I had a wisdom tooth removed and the bone was protruding out. I thought it was part of the tooth still in my jaw. I went back to the dentist and she told me to be tested for Osteoperosis. Then she tried to cover and stitch it up. It didn't work, however, the exposed bone became dry and brittle and I broke it off again and it then healed. Now I have the bone breaking through, however, it's been several weeks and it is ulcerated and not following the same course of recovery as in the passed. It's swollen and my entire jaw in throbbing with severe pain. On a scale of 1 to 10, it's at least a 9 most of the time. I put white Crest toothpaste on it and it feels better for an hour or 2, but for the most part, I'm ready to go to the emergency room for a morphine drip! My friend was recently diagnosed with inoperable oral cancer that started with my same symptoms. It sounds as though doctors have no idea how to diagnose and treat these problems.
I am open for any and all suggestions.
|Katherine 30 September 12|
|I have a dulling pain where I had my wisdom teeth extracted my bottom jaw is killing me. When I look in the mirror I see white poking up thru my healed gums. now reading these post I see that I will have to go back to my dentist.. damn I was in less pain with the wisdom teeth before I got oral surgery. THIS SUCKS!|
|My Mouth Hurts! 17 September 12|
|I have been fighting this problem as well, and it was causing a considerable amount of pain. My dentist first notified me of it, but I'd been having pain for awhile, but had sort of grown used to it too (I have what I consider to be a high threshold for pain, but I would rate these as 6-8 on a scale of 10). I get the idea the spur itself is not causing pain, but the gum tissue where it breaks through can hurt quite a bit, it's sort of like a dog teething but you can't really bite on it and it never ends.|
So my Dentist told me to pick at it with my fingernail, and the back side of a spoon. I was pretty dubious but one decent chunk came out after a week or so of that (maybe 1/4 of a dried pea in size). However, the remainder was stubborn, and I made it so sore digging at it I had to leave it alone for a few weeks, meanwhile using rum as a numbing agent, my only consolation. I was surprised one day when I was chewing on a mouthful of VERY tough and chewy bread, it was so tough and old to eat I finally took it out of my mouth and let my dog have it instead. I took a nap and when I woke up it was like the light switch had been turned off, and the pain was gone! The relief was immense and immediate.
The gum healed within a short time afterwards.
I have now had this happen once again now, in the same area but a little bit farther over (it felt like a mountain ridge heading towards where the first one was). This time, I have been able to break it off with my fingers after 3 or 4 weeks of picking at it and rum, and again, the relief was pretty much immediate (although not so dramatic, perhaps I was expecting it this time).
I feel much better knowing these can be broke off, as I heard a horror story of one woman that had oral surgery 4 times over a decade with these, and it practically ruined her life. There was a period in the first month or so I was ready for the surgery option no matter what the cost if this didn't resolve pretty soon, so I'm glad it did, I don't really want to start getting surgery in my mouth and I can see how that could quickly go bad, too.
|Don Patient 16 July 12|
|I dig the protuding bone out with a kitchen knife. Then the skin heals over and I feel just fine|
|Chuck Hays 5 June 12|
|Boris, I would like to know your email to exchange mails with you, as I may have some thing of the same type. I am 40 years old male of Asian origin and I have a bone growth under my left jaw inside mouth. The dentist took x-ray and said, its not a wisdom teeth. The dentist has now referred me to a Maxolifficial surgon. the area don't pain, but if I press had it bleeds little bit. Hope to get some reply from you.|
|Pradeep 2 April 12|
|I have had bone spurs growing through the inside of my lower jaw three times in my life so far. The first time was almost 30 years ago, I went to the dentist and he told me it was the root of a wisdom tooth breaking through. After removing the wisdom tooth the bone spur was still there and it hurt worse than before. At least he gave me codeine for the pain. About three to four weeks later the bone spur fell out on its own and less than a week after that the pain was gone. Cost: $1200. The second time was almost 20 years ago, I went to my dentist and he sent me to an oral surgeon who filed down the bone spur. This did nothing except increase the amount of pain I was in. He didn't even give me a pain killer. About three to four weeks later the bone spur fell out on its own and less than a week after that the pain was gone. Cost: $2300. This last time, I didn't go to the dentist. I used an OTC oral anesthetic and sore throat spray on the area to numb it, took Aleve when the pain was more than the locals could control and after three to four weeks, the bone spur fell out on its own yesterday. The residual pain is now getting better. Cost: less than $20.|
|Boris 8 January 12|
|I have been having the same problems. Mine started on the top right side above my back molars. There were 3 huge boney lumps that after a few days turned into ulcers. Then as the swelling went down, the bone started to push through. It hurt so badly. I went to the dentist and he shaved a bunch of it down. Then a few weeks later I got another one in front of the back two that had been shaved down. I saw a bunch of different dentists because none of them knew what to do or what it was. Then finally I went to an oral surgeon. He had never seen it before either. He just keeps giving me pain medication which seems to totally help, but then I got two more on the left side now. It has been over 6 weeks and they will NOT heal. I have no idea what to do. It is very frustrating. My jaw is killing me. A few days ago, the second one I got on the right side, a few huge pieces of bone came out of it. It was bleeding and hurt so so badly. Now there is just a hole, a very painful hole. I wish someone knew what was causing this and how to stop it. I am so afraid I am going to get more. NO ONE knows what the hell to do.|
|Jenna A. September 7 7 September 11|
|I'll add to this thread because I found it with a google search trying to diagnose my own exposed-bone-under-ulcer problem. What started like any other ulcer (and I get a lot of them) soon became swelling of my gum and some lymph node enlargement in my neck. When the bone finally broke through a little bit the swelling started to go down, and I waited it out, still expecting that surely it was due to heal itself any day now. After about 3 weeks the bone breakthrough seemed to be getting bigger instead of smaller. Today, finally seeing a dentist about it, he removed a split-pea sized piece of bone that had actually broken off under the skin and worked it's way to the surface. There was no infection. X-rays looked fine. There may never have even been an ulcer like I thought originally. He didn't say the bone remodeling was due to grinding or anything else serious, but didn't have a good explanation for it either. Either way, it seems bone exposure is not normal, and indicates something more than a routine ulceration.|
|Jay 23 August 11|
|Yes, a mouth guard is the same thing as a bite splint and it serves the same purpose. Apparently I grind my teeth at night and I didnít even know it. This has been causing some jaw bone growth that eventually breaks through the tissue in my mouth, then causing a sore, then causing an infection, and so on, and so on. I am ashamed to say it, but I have a bad habit of chewing on pencils and pens at work. I guess Iím a little high strung. But anyway, I have stopped doing that and I think I wonít have any more problems. Thanks for your website.|
|Karen 13 May 04|
|Is the mouth guard the same as a bite splint ? Whatever it is, I hope it works for you.|
|Dom Walton 2 May 04|
|come back and tells us what it may be|
Yes,that dentist is nuts if he thinks something like that is not serious.I would go to the ER and demand an exray of my mouth or an MRI something
these damn doctors donít want to work,they just want to pass you around one to another so everyone gets rich and you are the one suffering in the meantime..QUACKS!
|Gail 1 May 04|
|I wanted to thank you and update you. I went to the oral surgeon and my problem it seems is not related to ulcers after all. Itís a weird bone growth problem because I apparently grind my teeth. I have to get a mouth guard, and NOT have any more oral surgery. He said that was the wrong course of treatment for the first two. Anyway, mystery solved and I shouldnít have any more once I get the guard to prevent grinding my teeth at night. Thanks so much for all the help. You have a great website that helps a lot of people.|
|Karen 1 May 04|
|My dentist finally is sending me to an oral surgeon. I go this week. I (and the dentist) are thinking that this has more to do with some weird kind of bone growth in my mouth instead of ulcers. Although, it does seem to start as an ulcer. Either way, I am anxious to find out what the specialist says. Thanks!|
|Karen 12 April 04|
|I personally havenít had any blistering - mucous retention cysts look like little bubbles... http://www.dentistry.bham.ac.uk/cal/stlesions/stltn42.htm - could it be an ulcer-cyst combo ? Whatever it is you have, clearly needs some sort of treatment, I hope you manage to find someone that knows exactly what it should be.|
|Dom Walton 6 April 04|
|Quick question. Do the ulcers frequently come along with an infected area surrounding it, like a blister that has liquid in it? The one that I am currenlty suffering with, and the previous two, all have developed an infection in the surrounding gum tissue, resulting in a lot of swelling and I can feel liquid squishing around under the tissue when I rub it with my tongue.|
|Karen 3 April 04|
|Will do. Thanks so much for this web sit. I feel better now just knowing that there are so many other people that have had similar problems. From the sounds of it, Iíll be lucky if I donít end up having these over and over. Some of these folks here on the message board suffer horribly with them. Iíll continue to check in. Thanks so much!|
|Karen 28 March 04|
|I guess the obvious thing is to go to your doctor and see what he thinks it is. Clearly something needs to be done to stop the ulcer from growing - Kenalog/Adcortyl and Gengigel spring to mind, but do get another opinion first. Iíd recommend avoiding harsh toothpastes and mouthwashes i the meantime.|
Good luck, and let us know how you get on.
|Dom Walton 28 March 04|
|No treatment so far for the ulcers other than to go to the dentist when the exposed bone becomes apparent. I had never had a mouth ulcer before so I didnít really know what it was and was even a little uncertain of his diagnosis of an ulcer at first. He says that itís not uncommon for peoples bone in their mouth to continue to ĒgrowĒ and ĒchangeĒ and apparently mine is. But he has had to remove two pieces of exposed bone now, one on either side of my jaw under my tongue (the bone that your teeth sit in, but the teeth are not effected). Anyway, a third ĒsoreĒ is developing on the gum area covering the bone on the ĒcheekĒ side of my teeth. Itís hard to explain. |
I take Advair, an asthma medication that is inhaled. I have been very irresponsible in that I do not rinse my mouth each time. Apparently, it CAN cause mouth ulcers. I spoke to the pharmacist today and will be certain to start doing that from now on. But my main concern is whether or not anyone else has ever had an ulcer so bad that it eats away to the bone? I asked him if I needed to be concerned about cancer or anything like that, and he assured me that I did not. What kind of specialist would I see about this third one that is coming up? I want to make darn sure my dentist knows what the heck he is talking about. Thanks so much for writing back to me!
|Karen 27 March 04|
|Iíd call it a BIG DEAL and seek a second opinion. What medications or treatments have you tried so far ?|
|Dom Walton 27 March 04|
|I have had two ulcers recenlty in my mouth. Both resulted in exposed bone that had to be cut away by the dentist. It starts as a regular ulcer, then it eats away the gum tissue until the bone beneath it is exposed and has to be removed. Has this ever happened to you? I have another one starting now and I think I need to see a specialist. The dentist says itís no big deal, but I think I need a second opinion.|
|Karen 27 March 04|
Exposed Bone Under Ulcer?81 messages in this subject.